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ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2
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Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  genebko

Posts: 0

8/4/2009 9:14:00 AM

Mark,

FWIW: In speaking with the Access Board, what I was told is that they moved the illustrations for the residential WC clearances to be up with the other WC clearances illustrations so they''d all be in one place and never clarified that the intent was to apply those in different ways.

But, as you say, if the 2003 A117.1 is applied, it doesn''t matter since that requires the clearances to be without lavatory infringement (except in Chapter 10 for Type A and Type B units).


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  mtlogcabin

Posts: 0

8/4/2009 9:49:00 AM

ANSI A117.1-1992
4.17.2 Clear space for water closets not in stalls shall be 48 in minimum in front of the water closet and 42 in from the centerline of the water closet on the side not adjacent to the wall
The wording has changed but the requirement is basically the same. a clear floor space must be provided on one side of the water closet


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  MarkBot85

Posts: 0

8/4/2009 10:57:00 AM

I have to withdraw my statement referencing ANSI. I just remembered I still had a pdf copy of the ''98 version and it is also clear that no other fixtures shall be in the clear space. I was confusing ANSI with our former WAC regulations. The change of thinking for me occurred earlier than I remembered.

Way back, the state of Washington was the first jurisdiction to get their accessibility codes certified by the DOJ as meeting ADA requirements. I looked back and the old WAC regulations did allow the lavatory in the clear space which was in alignment with the ADA design guidelines (but not ANSI). This was not applicable to most others here. For what it''s worth, I''m posting Washington state''s old WAC reg:

WAC 1106.11.5.1 Clear floor space. The lateral distance from the center line of the water closet to the nearest obstruction, excluding grab bars, shall be 18 inches (455 mm) on one side and not less than 42 inches (1065 mm) on the other side.

EXCEPTION: In other than a toilet stall, a lavatory may be located within the clear floor space required for a water closet provided that knee and toe clearances for the lavatory comply with Section 1106.11.7


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  jar546

Posts: 0

8/4/2009 2:56:00 PM

I am glad that I posted this,even though it clearly shows my poor interpretation on this one. The information shared has been a tremendous help.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  Speccman in CT

Posts: 0

8/4/2009 7:29:00 PM

I think the code standard does not give anyone authority to enforce an informational drawing.

<><>

[i]ICC/ANSI A117.1-2003 - Section 104.3 Figures.

Unless specifically stated, figures included herein are provided for informational purposes only and are not considered part of the standard.[/i]

<><>

The text for 604.3 does not ''specifically state'' that Figure 604.3 is anything but ''informational.''

I believe the writers knew that strict interpretation of informational figures can confuse applications of the intended standard.

I understand Sec. 104.3 to mean, "If there''s a problem with - or a question about - one of our figures, just ignore it and comply with THE TEXT of the standard. Just the text and nothing but the text."


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  david g. gran

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 9:55:00 AM

Here is how I see it.

Fig. 604.3 applies to water closets within toilet compartments. A toilet compartment is a space within partitions in a bathroom. Section 603 applies to toilet and bathing "rooms".

Unless your water closet is in a toilet "compartment", clear floor spaces, clearances at fixtures, and turning spaces are permitted to overlap per 603.2.21.

The only mention of no other fixtures being within the required water closet clearance is under the heading of "compartments".

GPE


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  MarkBot85

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 11:29:00 AM

gpe,
Interesting....but, if you do interprete it that way, where are the requirements for grab bars & clearances, toilet height, etc for a single accommodation toilet room? All that information is in section 604. If all of section 604 didn''t apply to a single accommodation toilet rooms, we have some serious problems with the code.
I don''t think I can agree with you (but I''d like to). You can''t pick and choose what in section 604 applies to rooms. I think there are two headings in 604, "water closets" & "toilet compartments".

Edited- I should add I do agree that clear floor spaces can overlap in a room per section 603. I just don''t agree that 604.3 applies only to compartments.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  AlabamaTide

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 11:47:00 AM

I think ANSI-117 chapter 604 applies to water closets "and" toilet compartments as the heading chapter reads. The water closet could be within a compartment (for multi accommodations) or a room (single accommodation).

The grab bar requirements are applicable to WC''s in multi or single use layouts with exceptions given for dwelling and sleeping unit bathrooms of chapter 10.

Is the OP discussing dwelling and sleeping unit bathrooms (I think so) or single/multi WC layouts unrelated to chapter 10? Until that is known I don''t think we can get much further.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  david g. gran

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 1:46:00 PM

I''m just saying that Figure 604.3 and Section 604.3.2 would only apply to a toilet compartments and not to a toilet room.

The other portions of Section 604 would apply to either.

I don''t know. Strange arrangement of requirements.

GPE


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  MarkBot85

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 1:54:00 PM

It does not say it applies only to compartments.

But let''s assume it does for a minute. Then where would you find the code requirements for clear space for a water closet in a single accommodation room?


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  mtlogcabin

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 2:25:00 PM

2003 ANSI A117.1 Commentary
603.2.2
It is important to understand that the clear
floor space, or location where a wheelchair would sit when using a fixture, is permitted to overlap. However, the fixture itself cannot overlap the clear foor space of another. The most common mistake in public single user toilet rooms is to locate the lavatory adjacent to the water closet and over the water closet clear floor space.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  buckshot

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 2:34:00 PM

I agree with AlabamaTide/Randall/and mtnlogcabin.
604.1 General. This section applies to water closets AND toilet compartments.

604.3 and 604.3.2 are not limited only to compartments because compartments are specifically covered under 604.8.

I think that 604 is a general statement trying to cover accessible water closets whether they occur in a single user toilet room, multi-user toilet room or a compartment. This seems to make sense if the goal is to provide a 56" x 60" inch clear space for a side transfer.

I''ve heard the argument before that 603.1 applies only to "rooms" and therefore 604.1 applies only to "compartments" (because of the way the headers are worded) but I don''t agree with it.

I do agree that the numbering and headers of this section needs improvement!

BTW it is possible to have compartment with more than one fixture ...an accessible lavatory and a water closet both inside the compartment... as long as all of the clearances are met for both fixtures and the lav is not in the 56" x 60" area.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  genebko

Posts: 0

8/5/2009 4:01:00 PM

It''s both - water closets which are within compartments and water closets that are not within compartments.

603 is about the room where these things are located and 604 is about the WC and the WC compartments.


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  david g. gran

Posts: 0

8/6/2009 6:37:00 AM

Ok. Having gone over this again, I will have to agree that under the ANSI code, no fixture may be within the required water closet clearnance in either a toilet room or a toilet stall.

We use the Georgia Accessibility Code here which allows the edge of the sink to be no closer than 18" from the centerline of the water closet, 3'' from the sidewall in either a room or a stall.

Maybe I was just trying to justify our code. Oh well....

GPE


   

Re: ANSI 117.1 2003 604.3.2 By  buckshot

Posts: 0

8/6/2009 6:47:00 AM

We use the Missouri Accessibility Code here which states that the brush must be cleared in front of the outhouse for a distance of at least 3 feet.


   

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