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Forums» Fire Codes» NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R

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NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R
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Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  genebko

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 9:50:00 AM

If its all residential as you say (no lobbies, exercise rooms, club houses,etc.) then a 13R system is all that''s needed. Section 903.2.7 requires a sprinkler system top meet 903.3. Section 903.3 requires the installation to meet 903.3.1 through 903.3.7.

Then, 903.3.1 says that the installation shall meet 903.3.1.1, 903.3.1.2 [b]OR[/b] 903.3.1.3. Section 903.3.1.2 specifically talks about a 13R system.

I''m not sure where the disagreement comes from.
:confused:


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  cda

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 10:39:00 AM

A building offical dense, say it ain''t so


dense::: stupid; slow-witted; dull.
slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity; "so dense he never understands anything I say to him"; "never met anyone quite so dim"; "although dull at classical learning, at mathematics he was uncommonly quick"- Thackeray; "dumb officials make some really dumb decisions"; "he was either normally stupid or being deliberately obtuse"; "worked with the slow students"

Can the FM point to a section that he says requires the 13 system??

is there a trade off if the 13 system is used
I keep getting lost on that one, if a psrinkler system is required if you can still get trade offs.

[URL=http://www.notanicodefan.com]www.notanicodefan.com[/URL]


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  Builder bob

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 11:57:00 AM

IS it an ISO fire flow issue. I don''t think the current ISO policy gives a break for 13R systems. It may have to do with insurance ratings for the fire district and required fire flows.

Not a I-code issue except for IFC section 508 which requires the fire flows to be approved by the fire official.

The best thing to do is ask for the reason..... for he/she is the only one that can tell you why. Everything else is purely speculative on our part.


( got slow down and at least act like I can type and chew gum at the same :) )

[b]Additional revisions under consideration:recognition of fire sprinklers in residential and dwelling properties for reduction of needed fire flows (NFF) [/b]

[URL=http://www.isomitigation.com/fsrs]ISo mitigation - 2009 ISo Guidelines under consideration[/URL]


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  genebko

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 12:50:00 PM

cda is right. Get chapter and verse from the FM.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  rj2085

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 1:36:00 PM

BB: That is interesting link! I am not sure I fully understand the reduction issue.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  transplant

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 1:45:00 PM

Thanks you for your help gentleman. It was a combination of my being dense today and the FM being a little pig headed. The replies and code sections you all posted got me straightened out.

To: BB, I''m with rjj, I am not for sure I fully understand the reduction issue and need to study it more. Thanks for your input.

To: cda, where did you find the origin and definition of my middle name so quickly? :)
I try to call them like I see them and sometimes no matter how smart I think I am, I am really the problem. :eek:

You gentlemen have a great weekend.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  cda

Posts: 0

10/9/2009 2:41:00 PM

Pig-headed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having a head like a pig; hence, figuratively: stupidity obstinate; perverse; stubborn.


I have seen some ugly fire marshals, but not one that looked like a pig,

does he have swine flu, maybe that accounts for the looks


Thats allright we make allowances for BO''s


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  Builder bob

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 5:53:00 AM

ISO is about property protection .... Not life safety. Sprinkler systems are designed either as property protection with life safety a bonus but not the primary design feature..... Or as a life safety system with some property protection as a bonus, but not the main purpose.

NFPA 13 is a property protection designed sprinkler system with sprinklers everywhere... Attic, all rooms, between floor levels, etc. (General ROT''s - Rule of Thumbs).

ISO allows sprinkler reductions of 50% to 75% to the needed fire flow---- In other words, if the building size has a required fire flow of 3000 GPM, the required fire flow may be 1500 GPM or 750 GPM depending upon sprinkler, occupancy classifications, and specific reductions allowances by ISO.

A 13 R system is a life safety sprinkler system that is intended to prevent a room of fire origin from flashing over for 10 minutes. This system has a low water flow design, doesn''t cover all areas - i.e. attics, between floor spaces, closets, overhangs, etc.

ISO does not give any reductions in fire flows because this is not a property protection sprinkelr system. Therefore, if the same building described above requires 3000 GPM for the needed fire flow, 3000 GPM would be required.

To change ISO fire flow requirements:
a true NFPA 13 sprinkler system may be considered;
Change of construction type may be considered (i.e. non-combustible vs. woodframe);
Use of firewalls to reduce building areas may be considered;
Change of occupancy design....


FWIW, Texas is an ISO state. Required fire flow calculations may require certain things while the I-codes may not require them. We are an ISO state as well, we are always having issues with developers, engineers, and building code officials.........because the insurance rates for our area are determined by the ISO rating schedule, Thus to serve and protect the public - we have to abide by two (sometimes) conflicting codes/standards to ensure that we are serving the public to the bet of our abilities.
(getting better , only two typos this time :D )


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  genebko

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 6:52:00 AM

Does that make funding for his office "pork financing?"
:D


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  rj2085

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 7:08:00 AM

BB: thanks for the explanation! I knew that iso had ties to the insurance rates from past interaction with industrial clients.

This is interesting to different code recommendations that conflict. Now I understand the reasons of ISO reductions.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  stookeyphxfire

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 7:10:00 AM

Texas is an ISO state but ISO does not have the force of law. Fire flows in this state are determined by the local code official based on the adopted fire code.

Your analysis of NFPA 13 versus 13R versus 13D may work in your state but it does not work in Texas as it relates to fire flow reductions. Communities in this and other states have allowed fire flow reductions in accordance with IFC Appendix B105.2, and we''re not losing any sleep or being penalized by ISO.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  rj2085

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 7:35:00 AM

Thanks haz: So if I understand you ISO is totally outside the code in Texas?


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  transplant

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 9:01:00 AM

cda,

Thanks for making allowances for BO''s, believe it or not I like my fire marshal. Doesn''t mean we always agree, so that''s why I read this and ask questions.

Besides, the words he uses to describe me can''t be printed on the Bulletin Board and he is mostly correct.

BB and Haz,

Thanks for the info. It has been helpful and educational.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  Builder bob

Posts: 0

10/12/2009 10:44:00 AM

Hazmat Poobah - You are correct as far as sprinklered buildings go... the only issue that we have seen IFC vs. ISO for fire flows is in unsprinklered buildings with exposures within 150 feet.

FWIW, the local zoning ordiance here references ISO for fire flow determinations.


   

Re: NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R By  TJacobs

Posts: 0

10/14/2009 2:14:00 PM

13 might be required if an area increase was taken for sprinklers, see IBC 506.3.


   

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